How many of you still use 2D Classic?

[mdshep (Inactive)]

I struggle to make out the ball on data analysis camera. I will probably get used to it but 2d classic is the old reliable view ( and had the benefit of not making my laptop fans go crazy!)

[McClane29 (Inactive)]

2D Classic is not as good as the standard 2D match view. Quite disappointing that it is absent.

On the other had, the 'Data Analysis' camera does look quite good when fully zoomed in, however, as mentioned, it is very difficult to see the ball in this view.

[Guest El Payaso]

So no split screen anymore?  That's it for the feeling of 'there's no space on the pitch'.

[amer (Inactive)]

Can someone upload a pic of the new 2d view from fm18 please.

 

[ben carter (Inactive)]

23 minutes ago, amer said:

Can someone upload a pic of the new 2d view from fm18 please.

 

[Kingstontom88 (Inactive)]

Always been about the 2D classic for highlights with 3D for goal replays. The 2D camera in 3D mode I find tough to follow.

[Keyzer Soze (Inactive)]

I don't see any big differences when comparing with the 2D classic from last year... apart for the bright "let's blind all FM players" green.

The dots look the same.

[ben carter (Inactive)]

2 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I don't see any big differences when comparing with the 2D classic from last year... apart for the bright "let's blind all FM players" green.

The dots look the same.

2D classic used to look like this on FM17. Looked far better than the 2D in FM18 for me.

[Neil Brock]

14 minutes ago, ben carter said:

We've already made improvements to this so this will look better by the time we have the full release. Thanks. 

[penza (Inactive)]

2d always

[vasilli07 (Inactive)]

They acknowledge the pitch colour problem, maybe if the ball can be bigger and easier to see, it will be better. I liked the effect of the ball hitting the net.

Edited October 27, 2017 by vasilli07

[Keyzer Soze (Inactive)]

18 minutes ago, ben carter said:

2D classic used to look like this on FM17. Looked far better than the 2D in FM18 for me.

Again, apart from the pitch itself, in particulary the color, i don't see any difference. And @Neil Brockalready said that they already improved that issue.

So i'm guessing that for the release the 2D will be perfect (keeping my fingers crossed).

[mdshep (Inactive)]

There is much more blank space on the sides in the new version if you compare the screenshots. Or is it possible to zoom in on the new 2d classic 

[Glendell (Inactive)]

36 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

We've already made improvements to this so this will look better by the time we have the full release. Thanks. 

Thats really good to hear. Although I would like to know more about it.

If you can, please answer me this:

Will it look more like the older versions of the 2d classic?

Will it be more zoomed in the field itself?

I feel that the field looks too far out in that image (2018 version)

Thanks.

[puffascruffowitz (Inactive)]

It's funny I don't think I've ever seen one person say they use the "updated" 2D mode, I forget what it's called. I didn't even check this year is it still in the game? 

[JayArr (Inactive)]

3 minutes ago, puffascruffowitz said:

It's funny I don't think I've ever seen one person say they use the "updated" 2D mode, I forget what it's called. I didn't even check this year is it still in the game? 

I only started using it in FM17 when I realised how much I preferred it to 2D classic. And now it's gone. Dang.

I'll try using the Data Analyst view, but my first impressions are that you have to zoom out too far to get any widgets on the screen, making the ball tiny and the players completely obscured by their nametags.

[brez22 (Inactive)]

Why do SI put off so many people dicking around with 2D? Why is it a problem to have a classic view that so many love? They know 3D never pleased everyone too so why do something that you know won't please a lot of people? Really poor stuff.

[jonnyfresh (Inactive)]

2d all the way

[Neil Brock]

1 hour ago, brez22 said:

Why do SI put off so many people dicking around with 2D? Why is it a problem to have a classic view that so many love? They know 3D never pleased everyone too so why do something that you know won't please a lot of people? Really poor stuff.

2D was very much holding back the development of the match engine. Not just how it looks, how it plays and the AI behind it. Unfortunately for the progression of the game we had to make a very hard choice which we've done. We're trying to make 2D classic look as close as we can to how it was for FM17 so the change isn't too jarring for people, but I'm afraid that's how it is. 

[McClane29 (Inactive)]

7 hours ago, ben carter said:

2D classic used to look like this on FM17. Looked far better than the 2D in FM18 for me.

This version of 2D is fantastic and I'm gutted that it is currently absent in FM18.

I think there is some confusion over the names though. I thought this screenshot was of the '2D' engine - The '2D Classic' looked more like the 2D in FM18 with the stadium.

Matches themselves have become the worst thing about Football Manager.

[Deisler26 (Inactive)]

On 26/10/2017 at 22:21, KUBI said:

Try out the data analyst camera, it offers the same as 2D classic, but in 3-D.

Don't enjoy it. Even zoomed in, it doesn't give me the same level of detail and I can barely see the ball.

[KUBI (Inactive)]

1 minute ago, Deisler26 said:

Don't enjoy it. Even zoomed in, it doesn't give me the same level of detail and I can barely see the ball.

I guess this will be improved when the game is released.

[McClane29 (Inactive)]

2 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

I'm afraid that's how it is. 

This seems to be the slogan for FM18.

I'm very disappointed. Another item removed from the game in order to develop the series further. However, I'm yet to see anything new this year that impresses me or which warrants the exclusion of certain features. FM is becoming like FIFA - repackaging the same game with updated squads and a lot of jargon about new features which are barely features.

[brez22 (Inactive)]

5 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

2D was very much holding back the development of the match engine. Not just how it looks, how it plays and the AI behind it. Unfortunately for the progression of the game we had to make a very hard choice which we've done. We're trying to make 2D classic look as close as we can to how it was for FM17 so the change isn't too jarring for people, but I'm afraid that's how it is. 

I'm not sure the output I'm seeing here is good enough to justify that decision tbh. I'll make do with the 3d(although I just defended a free kick with the camera looking the wrong way) but its not a good move for the series imo.

[Vinnyvagus77 (Inactive)]

On 10/26/2017 at 22:21, KUBI said:

Try out the data analyst camera, it offers the same as 2D classic, but in 3-D.

The thing is I tried that but you struggle to see the ball.  In fact you struggle to see the ball in most of the 3D camera angles.  You lose track of where the ball is.  I know it's been mentioned in the bug section, so hopefully it will be resolved, and then maybe I will go to the data analyst camera.

[styluz_05 (Inactive)]

why can't I find anywhere to choose 2D over 3D in the game preferences someone help

[Columnarius (Inactive)]

I'm really missing 2D classic and am finding the remaining 2d option not viable.  I'll have to give the data analyst camera view a try.

[vasilli07 (Inactive)]

I would like to see a zoom in option. It doesn't have to be as many nodes as the camera angle. Maybe one or two nodes of 125%/150% or 150%/200%. The default view should be what it's in the game now. 

[blue heron (Inactive)]

9 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

2D was very much holding back the development of the match engine. Not just how it looks, how it plays and the AI behind it. Unfortunately for the progression of the game we had to make a very hard choice which we've done. We're trying to make 2D classic look as close as we can to how it was for FM17 so the change isn't too jarring for people, but I'm afraid that's how it is. 

And all these years we kept hearing there was no difference between 2d and 3d; that this was simply a different presentation of the ME behind it. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

[Vinnyvagus77 (Inactive)]

29 minutes ago, blue heron said:

And all these years we kept hearing there was no difference between 2d and 3d; that this was simply a different presentation of the ME behind it. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

The way I'm reading it, but probably will need Neil to confirm, is that there is/was no difference between 2D and 3D, "but" for the team to improve the ME "going forward" they would have to remove and retire the original 2D as there is likely to be a difference going forward. To avoid this they've made this decision to retire the original 2D into the FM museum!

 

Again, only how I'm reading it but would need confirmation that I've made the correct assumption. I may be completely wrong and so in which case I will hand my hand up!

 

If it was confirmed that there was a difference between how the the ME plays between 2D and 3D, then it would also back up a lot of the suspicions and conspiracy theories out there over the past number of years.

[Neil Brock]

1 hour ago, blue heron said:

And all these years we kept hearing there was no difference between 2d and 3d; that this was simply a different presentation of the ME behind it. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

You're misinterpreting but I can see why you would from what I've said - Vinnyvagus77 pretty much has it right above. The 2D and 3D have always been the same. However, due to restrictions in place on the entire system from keeping the 2D system, this is why it's changed now.

[MeMyself2k13 (Inactive)]

What I don't understand, is why you decided to make the game completely unplayable for a lot of players without gaming PCs, just because of match day graphics. FM is the kind of game where you spend 80% of your time in menus, how the actual matches are looking was always the least of my worries. Especially a few years into the save, where watching matches becomes more a burden than anything else, because you know exactly how your team plays.

Let's be honest, how many players do you think will actually enjoy seeing the same 5 seconds long 3D intro before they skip it, 5 years into the save? And this is why you decided to turn your back on a lot of loyal, older, less tech-savvy players, that have been with you since the beginning of the franchise, but will now be unable to play the game unless they buy a new computer?

I'm very disappointed with your decision to completely remove the 2D engine. I know that you've mentioned new graphics in the promotional videos, however you also have to understand that a lot of players trusted you to leave the option that helps the performance on older computers, in the game, like you did in previous editions. I'm afraid that FM18 will be the first FM in 6 years that I will not be purchasing.

[upthetoon (Inactive)]

Now i get what Miles meant by saying no one will play in 2d anymore. They basically removed the classic 2d.Bad move from SI as the large majority of supporters actually play in 2d. This 3d is nice for the first 5 hours of playing and then we are going to skip the intros anyway. 

[toffeemax (Inactive)]

21 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

We've already made improvements to this so this will look better by the time we have the full release. Thanks. 

really hope it's the same as the last iterations, for me I just feel the new 'classic' which is a bit of an oxymoronic term, is not as good and actually makes me contemplate whether to buy future versions. It seems that I'm not alone either.

[Neil Brock]

2 hours ago, MeMyself2k13 said:

What I don't understand, is why you decided to make the game completely unplayable for a lot of players without gaming PCs, just because of match day graphics. FM is the kind of game where you spend 80% of your time in menus, how the actual matches are looking was always the least of my worries. Especially a few years into the save, where watching matches becomes more a burden than anything else, because you know exactly how your team plays.

Let's be honest, how many players do you think will actually enjoy seeing the same 5 seconds long 3D intro before they skip it, 5 years into the save? And this is why you decided to turn your back on a lot of loyal, older, less tech-savvy players, that have been with you since the beginning of the franchise, but will now be unable to play the game unless they buy a new computer?

I'm very disappointed with your decision to completely remove the 2D engine. I know that you've mentioned new graphics in the promotional videos, however you also have to understand that a lot of players trusted you to leave the option that helps the performance on older computers, in the game, like you did in previous editions. I'm afraid that FM18 will be the first FM in 6 years that I will not be purchasing.

It's not just the match day graphics though, it's how the entire graphics and match engine works. In doing this it allows us to do a lot more with the engine both this year and in future years. 

As we've already said, we're trying to make the 2D classic mode available in FM18 look as similar to 2D classic as in previous versions. 

And to be honest, how long should we be supporting old systems for? If a system is 10 years old, should it still be able to run modern games? Even now the minimum spec Intel graphics device is something that was released in 2008. That means we're still supporting something which is nine years old. In gaming terms that's a lifetime.  

[RVL76 (Inactive)]

2D. 3D for replays. 

[MeMyself2k13 (Inactive)]

16 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

And to be honest, how long should we be supporting old systems for? If a system is 10 years old, should it still be able to run modern games? Even now the minimum spec Intel graphics device is something that was released in 2008. That means we're still supporting something which is nine years old. In gaming terms that's a lifetime.  

What is the actual bare-minimum spec that would run FM18? Can I find the official system requirements anywhere? Also, do you by any chance know if the game will continue becoming more and more demanding from this point on or should the current engine work for a couple of years, like the previous one did?

I'm low on money, but god damn am I addicted to this game...

[Neil Brock]

The minimum requirements can be found on the Steam page here - http://store.steampowered.com/app/624090/Football_Manager_2018/

Thanks. 

[blue heron (Inactive)]

5 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

You're misinterpreting but I can see why you would from what I've said - Vinnyvagus77 pretty much has it right above. The 2D and 3D have always been the same. However, due to restrictions in place on the entire system from keeping the 2D system, this is why it's changed now.

Clear and thank you for answering. I was hoping that this was the case and that I was too negatively inclined.

 

[michaeltmurrayuk (Inactive)]

18 hours ago, McClane29 said:

This version of 2D is fantastic and I'm gutted that it is currently absent in FM18.

I think there is some confusion over the names though. I thought this screenshot was of the '2D' engine - The '2D Classic' looked more like the 2D in FM18 with the stadium.

Matches themselves have become the worst thing about Football Manager.

2D classic is still in and isn't really any different from FM17, the mode that has been removed is the 2D one that used the 3D stuff.

This is from FM17:

This is from FM18:

And this is them together FM18 on the left FM17 on the right

The pitch area is the same size (slight change but it varies depending on the actual pitch size), whilst the stadium outline has just replaced the outer pitch stuff from FM17 and adboards have been added and as mentioned elsewhere the pitch is still being worked on.

[That9Two (Inactive)]

2D Classic. I tried the new 3D match engine for the FM18 beta, however, player movements are still very rigid and look unnatural. Player mistakes sometimes look ridiculous in 3D.

[McClane29 (Inactive)]

6 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

It's not just the match day graphics though, it's how the entire graphics and match engine works. In doing this it allows us to do a lot more with the engine both this year and in future years. 

As we've already said, we're trying to make the 2D classic mode available in FM18 look as similar to 2D classic as in previous versions. 

And to be honest, how long should we be supporting old systems for? If a system is 10 years old, should it still be able to run modern games? Even now the minimum spec Intel graphics device is something that was released in 2008. That means we're still supporting something which is nine years old. In gaming terms that's a lifetime.  

I think SI are underestimating how many users actually choose the 2D match view out of choice. Not just because their computer system may struggle to handle the 3D engine. I have quite a high-spec system this year and I would still choose 2D over 3D.

Even though the 2D engine is rather basic, it allows the user to use their own imagination to how play is unfolding in detail. Where as with 3D, we're watching the gameplay and having to try so much harder to forget the awkward movement and stadiums in our imaginations. Plus, 3D puts greater strain on the system and game than 2D does, even with high-end PCs.

Has SI ever done market research with its fans to find out which is the dominate match engine? 2D seems to be stronger than you think.

[KUBI (Inactive)]

1 minute ago, McClane29 said:

Has SI ever done market research with its fans to find out which is the dominate match engine? 2D seems to be stronger than you think.

They did and it is a small minority who are using 2-D as their preferred view.

[71834 (Inactive)]

The new flashing ads in 2d are almost making me feel nauseous in some transitions and I find them incredibly distracting. Does anyone have information on refunds for fm? Are they easy enough to get? I think I'll just move onto other games until that's changed, if it ever will be

[Johnleegriffin (Inactive)]

I have to watch on 2d now because my computer isnt that great and 3d on very low graphics looks god awful. Like something out of the 80s

[Hunkachunk (Inactive)]

2d all the way, I don't enjoy the graphics of 3d, and 2d gives me more information about what is going on. Shame they removed 2d and only have one option for 2d in 2018 as I really think the new one is so bulky.

[Hunkachunk (Inactive)]

16 hours ago, 71834 said:

The new flashing ads in 2d are almost making me feel nauseous in some transitions and I find them incredibly distracting. Does anyone have information on refunds for fm? Are they easy enough to get? I think I'll just move onto other games until that's changed, if it ever will be

You can refund it on steam at least. Depends on when you bought it and how much you've played it, but they do take cases like yours in consideration. 

[Neil Brock]

17 hours ago, KUBI said:

They did and it is a small minority who are using 2-D as their preferred view.

Yeah the numbers for 2D use are smaller than you'd think - they surprised me when I first saw them. However this forum is only a small fraction of our overall user base and I would expect a higher percentage of people on here to use 2D than the percentage of people who don't use our forums. 

[Neil Brock]

17 hours ago, 71834 said:

The new flashing ads in 2d are almost making me feel nauseous in some transitions and I find them incredibly distracting. Does anyone have information on refunds for fm? Are they easy enough to get? I think I'll just move onto other games until that's changed, if it ever will be

I'd suggest raising it on the bugs forum if you haven't already. If it is going to change it'll be due to a bug report being raised - thanks. 

[Dagenham_Dave (Inactive)]

If the dots were a bit bigger on the 2D engine, it would be more usable.