Can you develop a reputation for developing young players?

[koikingu (Inactive)]

Say if you give a lot of academy players debuts, or develop young signings so that they go on to play for big clubs can that begin to influence contract negotiations? (For example, an 18 year-old choosing to play for you at a worse team rather than, say, Jose Mourinho, because your reputation is that you will help them reach their potential? Or academy players being more likely to stay than pursue transfers to bigger clubs, because they believe you will give them a path to the first team?)

[Daveincid (Inactive)]

There is a dynamic hidden value called "youth importance". This value will climb if you are known to give youngsters a incredible amount of playing-time. This is linked to your club, so you probably see the impact after 2-3 seasons (mainly a better chance for talented newgens). The chance is very high, that this philosophy will be then part of the "club visions" aswell when you extend your contract. So short answer: Yes, it has an impact.

It's also shown at your managers profile. ("Known for signing younger players for the first team squad"). So you might have a higher chance for draw the interest of clubs to sign you as a manager if they have the same philosophy.

I hope it helped you a little.

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Daveincid

[du Garbandier (Inactive)]

This is my current profile after 8-9 seasons

... but newgen at my current club is dreadful. It'll take 2-3 seasons to improve; current new intake preview suggests another poor crop coming -- but I can't jump junior coaching from adequate to excellent in one go

[fc.cadoni (Inactive)]

What affects higher chance of getting better newgens.

Nation Side:

- Game Importance
- FA Financial Power
- Economic Factor
- State of Development
- Youth Rating

Club Side:

- Youth Facilities
- Youth Coaching
- Youth Recruitment
- Youth Importance

What affects player progression:

- Determination, Ambition, Professionalism (what about a new acronym DAP player? :-P )
- Injury Prone (lower the better)
- Training Facilities (higher the better)
- Coaches (higher quality the better)
- Age

Let's talk a little about age. Player which is between 22-24 years and older have probably reached their PA number, so growth is minimal or not at all. In 15-18 age range training is much more important from match experience. 18-21 age range training & match experience is equal important. 21-23 age range match experience is much more important from training.

Let's talk a little about DAP (Determination, Ambition, Professionalism). Ambition & Professionalism is hidden, but it can shown in coach report as "Ambition Player" or "Fairly Professional Player" as an example. May have a player with high Determination, but can lack in Ambition and Professionalism (where the mentoring kicks-in).

[Daveincid (Inactive)]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb fc.cadoni:

Club Side:

- Youth Facilities
- Youth Coaching
- Youth Recruitment
- Youth Importance

I would add "club reputation", "league reputation". This also helps.

[Nacaw (Inactive)]

This is getting off-topic, but players absolutely develop between 22-24. After a couple years in the game, you can buy 21 year old's that have been sitting in the reserves at big clubs, and they can become significantly better. In fact, I would argue that the majority of 22-24 year old's aren't close to their PA because of how bad the AI does with developing players. In this version player development also takes slightly longer overall compared to other versions, in my experience. 

[fc.cadoni (Inactive)]

25 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

This is getting off-topic, but players absolutely develop between 22-24. After a couple years in the game, you can buy 21 year old's that have been sitting in the reserves at big clubs, and they can become significantly better. In fact, I would argue that the majority of 22-24 year old's aren't close to their PA because of how bad the AI does with developing players. In this version player development also takes slightly longer overall compared to other versions, in my experience. 

Yes, but not in the rate-frequency like 15-18 age range.

[Nacaw (Inactive)]

12 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Yes, but not in the rate-frequency like 15-18 age range.

That is a matter of debate and definition. I've frequently seen players gain similar CA from 21-24 as they did from 15-18. Older players won't get +5 in a attribute, but that's purely because attributes cost more CA as they get higher. If a player goes from 60 to 90 at age 15-18, 90 to 120 at age 18-21 and 120-150 at 21-24, to me that's the same improvement, even if it's less gain in pure attributes. There are also players with later peak development than 15-18. 

[fc.cadoni (Inactive)]

9 hours ago, Nacaw said:

That is a matter of debate and definition. I've frequently seen players gain similar CA from 21-24 as they did from 15-18. Older players won't get +5 in a attribute, but that's purely because attributes cost more CA as they get higher. If a player goes from 60 to 90 at age 15-18, 90 to 120 at age 18-21 and 120-150 at 21-24, to me that's the same improvement, even if it's less gain in pure attributes. There are also players with later peak development than 15-18. 

Here.

[Nacaw (Inactive)]

18 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Here.

You just ruined your own argument there. Even in this minor example with 12 players, there's a player who gained more CA at age 21 than they did at age 15. Keep in mind that the P-value will be so low that it's a flaw experiment no matter the results. The video is also the best case scenario with coaches, facilities, hidden attributes etc. etc. It's a lab experiment. When you go into the wild, you'll notice significant deviations. Heck, even with most things being equal, players routinely gained CA from 50% to 200% of the average for their age group. This guy is doing the data a disservice by not diving into outliers and instead opting for a line graph of the averages. 

This brings up an issue I see more and more of on this board. While I appreciate when efforts are being made to isolate variables, this is simply the wrong way to go about analyzing FM. This game is all about how variables interact together. Showing what happens when players do no training or no games or even both is useless, because development always use those in combination + way more. Looking at this data and what I posted, it's very possible for a player to gain 30 CA in each development period (15-18. 18-21, 21-24). Again, just proves my point?  There should never be advice posted that "players between 22-24 years and older have probably reached their PA number", which is what I originally felt an urge to respond to. 

 

   

[koikingu (Inactive)]

16 hours ago, Daveincid said:

There is a dynamic hidden value called "youth importance". This value will climb if you are known to give youngsters a incredible amount of playing-time. This is linked to your club, so you probably see the impact after 2-3 seasons (mainly a better chance for talented newgens). The chance is very high, that this philosophy will be then part of the "club visions" aswell when you extend your contract. So short answer: Yes, it has an impact.

It's also shown at your managers profile. ("Known for signing younger players for the first team squad"). So you might have a higher chance for draw the interest of clubs to sign you as a manager if they have the same philosophy.

I hope it helped you a little.

 

 

 

Thanks. This was a really helpful answer.

[fc.cadoni (Inactive)]

10 hours ago, Nacaw said:

You just ruined your own argument there. Even in this minor example with 12 players, there's a player who gained more CA at age 21 than they did at age 15. Keep in mind that the P-value will be so low that it's a flaw experiment no matter the results. The video is also the best case scenario with coaches, facilities, hidden attributes etc. etc. It's a lab experiment. When you go into the wild, you'll notice significant deviations. Heck, even with most things being equal, players routinely gained CA from 50% to 200% of the average for their age group. This guy is doing the data a disservice by not diving into outliers and instead opting for a line graph of the averages. 

This brings up an issue I see more and more of on this board. While I appreciate when efforts are being made to isolate variables, this is simply the wrong way to go about analyzing FM. This game is all about how variables interact together. Showing what happens when players do no training or no games or even both is useless, because development always use those in combination + way more. Looking at this data and what I posted, it's very possible for a player to gain 30 CA in each development period (15-18. 18-21, 21-24). Again, just proves my point?  There should never be advice posted that "players between 22-24 years and older have probably reached their PA number", which is what I originally felt an urge to respond to. 

 

   

Where exactly did ruined it? As I said, 22-24 players development is minimal or not at all (not all players have 20/20 DAP). 

[XaW (Inactive)]

On 13/04/2022 at 09:22, Daveincid said:

It's also shown at your managers profile. ("Known for signing younger players for the first team squad"). So you might have a higher chance for draw the interest of clubs to sign you as a manager if they have the same philosophy.

One more thing you can get are "Paying close attention to youth development" as I have in my youth challenge save. Think that's more the right one.  

 

[Daveincid (Inactive)]

vor 1 Minute schrieb XaW:

One more thing you can get are "Paying close attention to youth development" as I have in my youth challenge save. Think that's more the right one.  

 

Lovely! I've never seen that one! But I'm not surpized that you are known for it  

[XaW (Inactive)]

9 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Lovely! I've never seen that one! But I'm not surpized that you are known for it  

I had to wait a fair few years for it to pop up in my current save, but I have had it before, so it was a waiting game before I could reply here!  

[Daveincid (Inactive)]

Gerade eben schrieb XaW:

I had to wait a fair few years for it to pop up in my current save, but I have had it before, so it was a waiting game before I could reply here!  

So even in a "youth-only"-save it takes 5+ years to pop up?

[XaW (Inactive)]

3 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

So even in a "youth-only"-save it takes 5+ years to pop up?

Yeah, I'm in 2027 currently and I just got it. I've not bought a single player and only gotten in the youth prospects and brought them into the main squad since the start. So it takes quite a while.

[Daveincid (Inactive)]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb XaW:

Yeah, I'm in 2027 currently and I just got it. I've not bought a single player and only gotten in the youth prospects and brought them into the main squad since the start. So it takes quite a while.

This is great news for everyone who starts a long-term save

[Icy (Inactive)]

Not there yet but will be soon as I'm both signing young players kicked out from top teams and developing them in my Crewe save. In fact teams are starting to approach me due to that. 

I don't know why does it appear three times in my profile, must be a graphical bug.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Icy

[koikingu (Inactive)]

On 14/04/2022 at 19:37, XaW said:

I had to wait a fair few years for it to pop up in my current save, but I have had it before, so it was a waiting game before I could reply here!  

@XaW Do you know what conditions trigger this exactly? I promote a lot of academy players and even handle youth team training directly and have never seen this.

[XaW (Inactive)]

11 hours ago, koikingu said:

@XaW Do you know what conditions trigger this exactly? I promote a lot of academy players and even handle youth team training directly and have never seen this.

No sorry, I don't know the specifics. I play a youth-only challenge, so I don't buy players at all, and I control their training as well, so I expect that bringing youngsters through and them becoming first team regulars at a regular basis is the basis for it. I also have done this for over 5 seasons, so it also takes a while to come into effect.

[Lathund (Inactive)]

I don't know what does it either, but can just add that you can get it without doing the full youth challenge; I'm in 2031 and have bought 49 players and have the "Pays attention to youth" label. I don't handle youth training (Except for a few months once, and for setting individual training on my good prospects) either. But I do promote my academy players to the first team, got like 10-12 players who came through my academy playing regularly atm. 

Can also add that I've seen players improve massively from 22-23. In earlier versions the players that age with a high PA but low CA seemed to be lost causes, where even under the best circumstances their improvement would be too slow. But so far in FM2022 I've actually listened to my scouts when they rate those players highly, and have been right a lot. Especially one of my players saw like a 2-3 point increase almost across the board to technical/mental attributes between 22 and 23. So I've started treating 20-22 year olds with personalities a bit like I would treat 18-20 year olds in earlier versions. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Lathund

[turnip (Inactive)]

On 14/04/2022 at 10:55, fc.cadoni said:

Where exactly did ruined it? As I said, 22-24 players development is minimal or not at all (not all players have 20/20 DAP). 

I'd draw your attention to the fact that, on the second screenshot, this is comparing Chininha to how he was when he was 23, a few months after we signed him.

He's improved a lot. Most of it mentally, sure, but the Technical and Physical improvements aren't nothing. And you can see from his Personality that he isn't particularly Professional. (He's also learned to play DM, because who doesn't love having a Roaming Playmaker at DM?)

 

Players improve plenty from 22-24 if they get enough game time at an appropriate standard. 

And yes, I have the editor enabled in this save; so I can quantify exactly how much this guy's improved in 4.5 years. 

[fc.cadoni (Inactive)]

Not happened to all players within the database mate. 

[Daveincid (Inactive)]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb turnip:

And yes, I have the editor enabled in this save; so I can quantify exactly how much this guy's improved in 4.5 years. 

How big is his CA-progression from 23-26?

[turnip (Inactive)]

2 hours ago, Daveincid said:

How big is his CA-progression from 23-26?

Spoiler

He's gone from 128 or so when we signed him, to 170